Pennsylvania Legacies #239: Advance Notice

Josh Raulerson 0:10 

It’s Friday, October 24, 2025. I’m Josh Raulerson, and this is the Pennsylvania Legacies podcast from the Pennsylvania Environmental Council. With power-hungry data centers popping up all over the Commonwealth, and many more in the works. Pennsylvania needs a lot more electricity, and we need it soon. The good news is, there are quite a few new power generating facilities just waiting to be hooked up and put to work. Better news, many of those plants run on renewable and other zero carbon emitting energy sources which are not only better for the climate, they’re generally cheaper and, with the right setup, more reliable than the alternative.

The trouble is, PJM, the entity that operates the electric grid for Pennsylvania and 12 other states, is way behind in its process of connecting those new power plants. That’s the main reason electric bills have been going through the roof this year. But even if there were no interconnection backlog, we’d still need lots more capacity to keep up with projected demand, capacity for generating power, and for getting it to where it’s needed. So, we also have to build out transmission infrastructure, which will take years and cost billions. In the meantime, what if there was a way to get much more use out of the transmission system we already have at a fraction of the cost? That’s the promise of emerging ATTs advanced transmission technologies that can make our electric grid more efficient, more intelligent, more resilient, and safer. It’s not a substitute for scaling up capacity, but it might buy us some time, and it’s ready to go now. To learn more about the emerging technology and explore its potential. On this episode, we’re talking with Chris D’Agostino, policy principal for Advanced Energy United, and Jenny Netherton, who is a clean energy policy officer with the Pew Charitable Trusts. Jenny, Chris, welcome to Pennsylvania Legacies. Glad you’re here.

Jenny Netherton 1:55

Thanks for having us.

Chris D’Agostino 1:56

Thank you.

Josh Raulerson 1:57

Why don’t we start with a little background? Why don’t you introduce yourselves, tell me a bit about you, your respective organizations, and the work you do?

Chris D’Agostino 2:04

Sure, wonderful to be on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I’m Chris D’Agostino, the Pennsylvania Policy Principal with Advanced Energy United, we’re an energy trade association representing companies across the full spectrum of advanced energy technologies that drive down costs and strengthen grid reliability, including advanced transmission technologies, which we’re proud to have amongst our membership. So, I really look forward to this conversation.

Jenny Netherton 2:30

And I’m Jenny Netherton. I’m an officer with the Pew Charitable Trusts. Pew is a nonpartisan policy organization that uses research and data to work on the big challenges of today. I work specifically on the energy modernization program and focus on how transmission solutions can help us squeeze more out of the grid.

Josh Raulerson 2:49

Very happy to have you both here. You know, in Pennsylvania, this is increasingly a big news story. There’s a lot of demand for electricity already, and when you consider the amount of investment being made in data centers for AI and other computing applications, that’s just going to go up and up and up. And it’s to the point where there’s a lot of widespread public concern about how we meet this demand. So, to that end, there’s been a lot of talk about how can we just generate more electricity? How can we get it where it needs to go? By speeding up an interconnection queue that has kind of stalled out, and also just using less energy, where we can make our existing usage more efficient. You don’t hear as much about transmission in those conversations, and partly, I think we’re hoping to change that today. But where does transmission fit in that big picture I just described?

Jenny Netherton 3:36

That’s a great question, and I think my short answer would be that transmission is what enables all of those things. I will give you a much longer answer, though, and kind of tell people a little bit more about the transmission system itself. So, one way to think about this is transmission is the highway for energy that allows electrons to travel from where they’re generated to where they are used. These are large, high-voltage lines that are distinct from the distribution lines that you might see going into homes and businesses. We know that highways need maintenance, and if you’re driving on a road that has potholes or lanes closed, and I’m thinking of things like outages and aged transmission infrastructure, it’s going to take you longer to travel down that highway, and you can travel fewer people or electrons. The same is true of our transmission infrastructure.

Chris D’Agostino 4:28 

Yeah. And to add on to that, I think it’s worth framing transmission in terms of, frankly, how we have an outdated and old transmission system that needs to be upgraded. So, we’re going to talk more about grid congestion later, but outages and power outages are very expensive. Grid congestion cost 20 billion dollars to the economy in 2022 alone, and blackouts, according to the Department of Energy, is around 150 billion dollars. This is a lot of money, and it’s an argument to make sure that we have a reliable, cost-effective transmission system, and ATTs will help enable that.

Josh Raulerson 5:09

So, this system has been, you know, to some degree, neglected. We have some catching up to do just to maintain the existing system, but we also have to go a bit beyond that. I think in the good news is that there’s been a lot of technological advances lately. That’s what we’re here to talk about, specifically advanced transmission Technologies or ATTs. Could you explain that term? What are ATTs, and what are some of the technologies we’re talking about?

Jenny Netherton 5:33

Absolutely, so ATTs are a suite of hardware and software solutions that can help us squeeze more power out of our grid. ATTs work in different ways, but all of them can be installed quickly, about three months to three years, and work to make transmission more efficient. Some ATTs are hardware that is physically installed. So, for instance, dynamic line rating devices, also known as DLRs. I’m sure there will be plenty of acronyms in this conversation. DLRs are small sensors installed on lines that monitor real-time weather and temperature information, which allows grid operators to safely increase the amount of power flowing on the lines. There is also hardware called advanced power flow controllers that help reroute power to where it’s needed most. And so, these devices are installed directly onto existing lines. Another transmission technology is advanced conductors, which increase the capacity of transmission lines themselves. These use new composite materials that can transmit more energy than traditional steel core lines. Lastly, there’s a software solution called topology optimization that looks at the entire transmission grid and can determine the most efficient routes for electricity to travel. I would like to distinguish between ATTs and GETS, so ATTs or advanced transmission technologies, GETS are grid-enhancing technologies. We use the term ATTs because they include things like advanced conductors that are a slightly different solution than just grid-enhancing technologies. I default to the more expansive language of ATTs. So, as you can see, these are kind of a variety of technologies that, when you put them together, can really make an impact on the grid.

Chris D’Agostino 7:28

And adding to that, I think if there’s one thing that binds all these technologies together, it’s making sure that electrons are going to where they need to go. And I want to elaborate more on the highway metaphor that you brought up earlier. So, if transmission is the highway, let’s talk about electrons as if they were ours on the highway. So, electrons, all they know how to do, really, is to obey the laws of physics. They don’t exactly know where to go, or, you know, how to power homes and businesses most efficiently. So, when we talk about power flow controllers, these are like the traffic conductors that automatically redirect traffic to the less crowded routes when one highway gets jammed. Dynamic line ratings are like real time traffic sensors that tell you how fast cars or electrons can go safely depending on road and weather conditions, topology, optimization, it’s almost like Google Maps, where Google Maps will show you a route that’s 15 minutes to it to your destination, or it will show you 10 minutes to your destination and you want to take the most efficient route. And then advanced conductors is like you could think about it as widening each lane or repaving the highway such that it’s easier for cars or electrons to travel through it. So, all these technologies together make the most out of the electrons that are already generated on our grid. And I want to just also highlight yes, this is distinct from generation, right? The generation has already happened. We have electrons on our grid, and how do we make sure that they get to their destination most efficiently?

Josh Raulerson 9:18 

And if we could stay with the metaphor for just a little bit longer, you were talking about, you know, the analogy to, like, a Google Maps or a GPS, is it also the case that, like, you know, if you’re driving and suddenly there’s a crash up the road? It will suggest, you know, here’s an alternate route. And automatically calculate what’s the best way to get from A to B right? Now, is that kind of the idea, or is it more static than that?

Chris D’Agostino 9:39

Oh, absolutely, yeah. So that can happen in real time, and that can happen when there are emergencies, such as disasters that happened that take a line down, it will calculate a new route for electrons on that line, which make them particularly

Josh Raulerson 9:54 

helpful. So, thinking about all those variables that may be in play in any given situation, what are the ones that we’re most concerned about in Pennsylvania, specifically with our climate, our topography and our usage patterns and all that, what are the things that can affect how well our transmission systems are performing, and how can ATTs help with that?

Jenny Netherton 10:13 

There are a couple things about ATTs that I think are particularly relevant for Pennsylvania. One of those is that ATTs can help grid operators better manage weather events, whether that’s how. High temperatures that can cause lines to become overloaded or routing power on particularly cold mornings. The other option here is, as new large load customers and data centers choose Pennsylvania for their projects, ATTs can help manage reliability and affordability for Pennsylvania residents.

Chris D’Agostino 10:45

One thing that agencies help address is actually bringing new generation onto the grid. So right now, in Pennsylvania, there’s so much generation that could be online very quickly, particularly clean energy PJM, which is the regional transmission organization. They have so much clean energy that’s just waiting in their queue, waiting to be cited. So, one of the reasons why these generation systems can’t go online right away is because there’s congestion in the grid, and ATTs can help address that, and when ATTs help address that, it makes it easier for new clean energy to come online.

Josh Raulerson 11:26 

So, looking past just the issue of how do we meet demand and demand that’s growing and going to continue growing, how can these advanced transmission technologies address concerns about cost and reliability, which are also looming very large right now?

Jenny Netherton 11:40

Absolutely, to build off of what Chris was saying a little bit, when new projects want to come online, they also have to pay network upgrade costs to make sure that the transmission infrastructure can handle the energy from their project. And so, the more upgraded and advanced your system is, the less those costs become as your grid is better able to integrate more energy sources. You know, one particular issue that ATTs can help with is congestion, which is a bit of a term of art in the energy world. I know we’ve used it a couple times, but to put a little bit of a you know, finer context on that, regional transmission organizations like PJM in Pennsylvania are responsible for ensuring the supply and demand of the grid is balanced at all times, and typically, PJM dispatches the lowest cost available power first and then adds higher cost resources as needed. Congestion occurs when those lower-cost electrons are not able to reach consumers, requiring the addition of higher-cost electricity, so ATTs can allow RTOS to better manage this supply and demand by giving them more visibility and control over those lines, helping to ensure that cheaper power is available to be delivered to consumers.

Chris D’Agostino 13:01

On the subject of cost, I think it’s worth highlighting a few really exciting, real-life case studies on ATTS from our friends at RMI., We’ve done some fantastic analyzes. So, they found that across PJM, the PJM region, the adoption of ATTs, it would cost about 100 million, but it would yield about 1 billion in annual production cost savings, so remarkable return on investment argument there. And then, there was a case study from RMI that looked at Palm head service territory in north central Illinois, and found that there were upgrades that were needed to get more generation on and initial network upgrade modeling suggested that traditional upgrades would take three years and cost about $100 million dollars, but upgrading the same infrastructure using GETS would cost 12 million and take 12 to 15 months. I don’t want to suggest that this is a one size fit all solution, that this would work absolutely everywhere, but it does give a strong argument that in many cases, advanced transmission technologies are cheaper and faster to deploy than traditional upgrades.

Josh Raulerson 14:17 

So, some pretty compelling points on the you know, cost and reliability, and the speed of deployment, all those considerations are there other benefits that we should be keeping in mind. Like, for example, do these systems make transmission safer, reducing wildfire risk, or other kind of environmental impacts?

Jenny Netherton 14:35 

ATTs do actually make our transmission system safer in a number of ways. We’ve talked a little bit already about DLRs, that give grid operators real-time data on weather and temperature conditions. Those same sensors can also detect wildfires by giving first responders a leg up on both battling wildfires and preventing disruptions in electricity. Separately, advanced conductors can also help prevent wildfires. Traditional transmission lines with steel cores sag and high temperatures, or when the lines are at capacity, which can cause them to come into contact with vegetation and spark wildfires. Advanced conductors with composite cores actually don’t sag, which prevents one potential source of wildfire, the secondary benefit benefit of this ability of advanced conductors to not sag is that it often means, as Chris mentioned earlier, that you can use the same poles and not have to install larger transmission lines, generally speaking, before advanced conductors, if you wanted a line to carry more energy, you needed to build it physically larger. And that is also changing with these new technologies.

Josh Raulerson 15:49 

And then putting this in context with the sort of current or past generations of technology, and specifically the cost of implementing them, what’s the comparison here? How much, I’m going to presume that it’s cheaper? How much cheaper is it when you consider all of the costs and benefits to implement these, these more advanced systems?

Jenny Netherton 16:07 

I would say that ATTs are certainly cheaper than building new generation or transmission, but they’re also not a substitute for new generation or transmission. ATTs benefit is really that they can be quickly installed and that they can help us get more power out of the grid as we plan for new generation and transmission. So, there’s this window of about 10 years that it takes to build a new transmission line, and ATTs can really help us in those 10 years. They also play a really big component in having an advanced grid of the future, if you want a grid that can respond to wildfire, events, to weather, to increase demand, you really want these technologies integrated so you have more visibility as to what’s happening.

Josh Raulerson 16:56

As we’ve established in Pennsylvania, the need is considerable for these kinds of upgrades. What is it that makes Pennsylvania a good, you know, proving ground for these technologies. Why would we be a good candidate to invest in advanced transmission?

Chris D’Agostino 17:09

Well, there’s definitely new industries that are coming online that require just greater electricity demand, the electrification of homes, the onset of electric vehicles, electricity demand is no longer going to be stagnant as it was for the past few decades, right? It is going up, and that’s just the trend. And it’s important that we efficiently manage the electrons that are on our grid, and that is something that advanced transmission technologies can efficiently do, and also, it’s worth noting that it will help Pennsylvania continue to be a net energy exporter in the region, right again, facilitating more electrons through the grid so that other states can benefit from from Pennsylvania’s energy supply.

Josh Raulerson 17:55 

Shifting to the policy context, what needs to be happening in state legislatures, and specifically Pennsylvania, is what kind of regulatory action might be needed, and is there anything happening at the federal level

Jenny Netherton 18:08

What we’re seeing nationally is that states are taking action on ATTs. We’ve had over 15 states pass legislation that uses several different policy mechanisms. So, I can go over kind of a few of the things that other states are doing. Indiana and Utah both passed bills earlier this year to require utilities to include ATTs in their integrated resource plans. So, these bills also do provide for cost recovery for prudently incurred ATT expenses. The Indiana bill also separately requires the iurc to evaluate ATTs and how they can add to Indiana’s grid. Separately, we’ve seen some other routes. My home state of Louisiana, has actually created a legislative task force to look at the use of gets in ATTs. And then one other policy mechanism we’re seeing related to the wildfire benefits is we’re seeing states like Idaho recently passed legislation that requires utilities to consider ATTs in their wildfire mitigation plans. So, this is obviously a slightly different application of that, but still speaking towards the benefits of ATTs and kind of the different options of how those states can look at that.

Chris D’Agostino 19:28 

It’s also worth having a pathway for utilities to think about upgrades, not just piece by piece, but also have a full decades long window for which they’re looking at upgrades. ATTS, not only have the potential to reduce costs for consumers, but also reduce costs for utilities. And having a pathway like in Pennsylvania, we’re proud to support a bill, I’ll give it a little name drop, HB 705, that provides a window of decades for which utilities plan. So that makes sure that low-cost solutions are on the table, including utilities, and it’s not just a say, another substation that’s more costly to not just the utility, but the consumer.

Josh Raulerson 20:16 

So, we’ve got HB 705 in the mix. Apart from that, my sense is that Pennsylvania is not as far along as some of the other. States that you mentioned, what can we learn from what’s happening in Indiana, Louisiana, Utah, other place?

Jenny Netherton 20:31

Sure. So, I think one thing I would emphasize is that while these states are farther along in legislation, they’re really just getting to the implementation portion of these bills. So, once you pass legislation, obviously, you have to go through everything to make sure that it is enforced. So, one really good example of this is Utah, where in their bill, the Public Service Commission is charged with evaluating ATTs in the IRP process. So, we actually, Pew, recently hosted a technical briefing for the Utah PSC who are charged with this evaluation to help them as they undertake this new line of work. I think one big takeaway from that briefing was the importance of having all necessary stakeholders in the room. Transmission involves a lot of parties, from utilities to consumers to regulators, and I think the open lines of communication between those parties makes tackling those issues a lot easier.

Josh Raulerson 21:32

Bringing it all back to the big picture, then, and Chris, you had mentioned, you know, clean energy, there’s so much untapped potential, largely due to the interconnection delays, but recognizing that renewables and clean energy have a really important role to play in this mix. We also, and this is reflected in Governor Shapiro’s energy agenda, the press and the reset proposals in the lightning strategy, that we needed all of the above energy portfolio, we can’t really afford to leave any one option on the table. So, putting ATTs in that context, where do they fit in this overall kind of medley? I think was the term you use, medley of energy sources and policies.

Chris D’Agostino 22:11 

If I was to divide the need for matching this rising demand with supply, I would put into two categories. So, one is getting new generation on the grid itself, which reset and press help do, which are part of Governor Shapiro’s lightning plan. And then the other side is maximizing use and efficiencies of the electrons that are being generated already. And ATTs falls into this latter category we have to be doing all of the above right now simultaneously, and they also at each other, right when we reduce congestion on the grid, that strengthens the argument for bringing new clean energy onto the grid, right? So, there is, there’s that interconnection. There, no pun intended, yeah,

Jenny Netherton 23:03 

I think for final thoughts, you know, I think there are three main things I would want people to take away about ATTs. I think the first is that they’re here and now, these are already being deployed and used, you know. The second is that they can help us get more out of the grid. ATTs are technology-neutral and are just helping us squeeze more power out of our grid. And I think the third thing I would really want to emphasize is that this can help Pennsylvania consumers have more visibility and control over their electricity.

Josh Raulerson 23:35 

Jenny Netherton with Pew Charitable Trusts. Chris D’Agostino with Advanced Energy United. It’s been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for bringing your knowledge to this topic.

Jenny Netherton 23:46

Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it.

Chris D’Agostino 23:48

Thank you.

Josh Raulerson 23:56 

If you’re curious to know more about Pennsylvania House Bill 705 and to find out how other states are implementing policy on ATTs, you’ll find it in the show notes for this episode on the PEC website, at Pecpa.org. All the past episodes of Pennsylvania Legacies podcast are also on the website. Just this year, we’ve looked at topics including research on the potential of emerging geothermal energy technologies in Pennsylvania, plans for controlling invasive species in our forests. New tools to help trail managers meet the often-daunting challenges of trail maintenance, and one PEC staffers quest to visit three national parks. Find all those episodes and many more at P, E, C, P, A, dot, O, R, G, that’s all for now. Hope you can join us for the next episode of Pennsylvania legacies out in a few weeks. Until then. I’m Josh Raulerson. Thanks for listening.