Pennsylvania Legacies #235: Maintenance Men

Josh Raulerson (00:01):

It is Friday, May 30th, 2025. I’m Josh Raulerson, and this is the Pennsylvania Legacies Podcast from the Pennsylvania Environmental Council. Planners and developers of all sorts, but especially those who work on trails, are all too familiar with shiny object syndrome. That’s the tendency to fixate on new and exciting projects at the expense of ongoing work that’s just as vital, but perhaps not as sexy or marketable. That’s understandable. When you consider the power of trails to bring together diverse constituencies, leverage interconnected funding opportunities, spur economic growth and generate excitement in communities. That’s the kind of energy that can fuel a trail’s boom like the one we’ve been seeing in recent years, not just here in Pennsylvania, but across North America. It’s led to many new trail miles on the ground, critical trail gaps closed, and successful efforts to activate use and improve access. That’s all very much worth celebrating.

(01:00):

But at the same time, trail organizations, their partners and their funders are increasingly turning to the not so crowd pleasing challenge of how to ensure the long-term sustainability of these assets. The reality is that after the ribbons cut and the reporters have left, the task of trail maintenance is often left in the hands of modestly funded municipal agencies, or maybe grassroots volunteers who are full of passion, but sometimes light on resources and expertise. In fact, it can be tough for trail managers to even get a handle on the current condition of their trails, much less make informed choices about how to allocate scarce resources or head off potential problems before they get out of hand. Well, the PEC Trails team has been wrestling with this problem for the last few years, and they recently took a big step forward with the completion of PEC’s new Trail Maintenance Assessment Guide combined with a companion mobile app.

(01:55):

The guide empowers even the smallest trail organizations to identify priorities and build rich data sets that’ll, in turn help to guide future decisions. This is not just a practical tool for tackling on the ground maintenance challenges, although it certainly is that it’s also a way to make a clearer case for funding needs and to quantify both costs and return on investment. The toolkit was unveiled earlier this month at the collaboration of Regional Trail Initiatives Conference in Charlotte, North Carolina, and it’s already captured the attention of trail advocates nationwide. Brett Hollern, PEC’s VP for Western Pennsylvania, and Program Manager Zhenya Nalywayko, who we call Z. Worked on this project alongside our consultants environmental planning and design, and they’re here today to talk about what went into this monumental effort and what we expect to come out of it. Brett, Z welcome back to the podcast.

Brett Hollern (2:49)

Thank you, Josh.

Zhenya Nalywayko (2:50)

Nice to be here.

Josh Raulerson (

Why don’t you start off by talking a bit about PEC’s Trails Program and your respective roles within it, the work you do?

Brett Hollern (02:58):

Sure. PEC’s been involved with trails for 20, 25 years. PEC doesn’t own any trails and usually aren’t involved directly in the building of them. Our role is generally supporting others’ efforts to get trails completed by either, you know, helping to acquire funding, convening folks planning just generally supporting all the efforts of others to get trails done. My role with PEC is I’m vice President for Western Pennsylvania, but I’ve largely oversee our trails and outdoor recreation work in the western part of the state.

Zhenya Nalywayko (03:33):

My name is Zhenya, or Z, as most people call me. I’m a program manager with PEC, was in the Philly office for about four and a half years, and moved out to our Pittsburgh office this past summer, and now I’m working on one development of a rail trail project, the Knox and Kane Rail Trail up in the Allegheny National Forest. But I’m also helping Brett carry out our trail maintenance and sustainability work, which we’ll get into.

Josh Raulerson (04:04):

Brett, you mentioned PEC is kind of a unique role in these kinds of projects. Can you expand a bit on that and talk about why this niche that PEC occupies in the trails ecosystem makes us a, you know, a, a good candidate to, to do a project like this, to produce this kind of research?

Brett Hollern (04:21):

Sure. One, you know, our trail groups are pretty much fully engaged in building and, and maintaining trails and don’t have much time for the advocacy end of things. That’s a role that PEC fills very well when we’re thinking about the long-term sustainability of trails. I believe it’s challenge for trail organizations to really dedicate the time and energy required to address what is I, I believe the, the largest threat to our, you know, extensive trail network in Pennsylvania. So we have an opportunity to step in ’cause we understand sort of the needs and wants and, and challenges that these trail groups face based on our work convening them. Right? No one trail group is the same as the other. So I think PEC’s perspective and long history in working in trails positions us well to tackle this.

Josh Raulerson (05:15):

When did you, and when did PEC kind of first begin to become aware of this looming challenge with trail maintenance? What prompted you to actually take it on as a project?

Brett Hollern (05:25):

Well, the rallying cry that you hear from trail groups since the day trails were built was outside of, we need money to build these, is we need money for maintenance. That’s a very easy thing to understand at its most basic level. But when you really start to dig into what does that mean, we need money for maintenance. Trail groups are tasked with lots of different things, and often the routine maintenance that is laid out in front of them, the mowing grass, picking up trash, keeping the trail safe and clean for users takes precedence over sort of the core infrastructural elements of maintenance that need done, the things that will sustain the trail over the long haul, the drainage infrastructure. You know, in western Pennsylvania, all of our trails have major structures, much like the threat that we have to, you know, the nation’s highway bridges.

We have very similar concerns with trail infrastructure. Are these bridges being inspected routinely? You know, so those types of things are what we’re trying to get at. We’re not really trying to address necessarily, how can we better mow our trails. We’re trying to address like, what is it when we say we need money for maintenance that’s going to ensure that these projects sustain themselves over the long haul. And to get back to your question, because I kind of wandered off a little bit there, we need to build a case to funders of what it is that means, right? So we’re doing assessments of these trails to show like, these are the problems that face trails. So we go, we’re putting meat to the bone in that regard.

Josh Raulerson (07:03):

Is it fair to say one way of looking at this is that, you know, PEC and other trail organizations have been victims of our own success in some ways, in that it has been such a fruitful period of these last, you know, few years of, of developing trails and getting them built. And now we’re in the situation where the, like the much less sexy, shiny object kind of work of trails is of, of trail maintenance that is really coming to the forefront. How do you shift the mindset, especially when you’re thinking about funders and, you know, partners, trail managers? How is this evolution taking place and why has it been so hard to pivot, you know, from building trails to a long-term plan for maintaining them?

Brett Hollern (07:41):

Well, I think the idea of trails as civic infrastructure hasn’t really hit home, you know. They’re recreational assets, but they’re truly much more than that. They’re economic drivers. They’re transportation corridors, they’re places of respite, they’re community assets, but at their core level, they’re public infrastructure without in many cases dedicated funding in place to ensure this public infrastructure is maintained. We rely heavily on volunteer labor and the volunteers are doing an admirable job, but to strictly rely on what are often unskilled volunteers who are doing tremendous work and, and showing their civic pride in being out there, they’re not armed with the tools, resources, equipment, funding needed to maintain this valuable infrastructure. And I always like to say town wouldn’t build a sewer line and ask volunteers to maintain it, but here we are building public infrastructure with the expectation that it’s someone else’s problem to maintain. So we need to address it head on and treat trails like the public’s infrastructure they truly are.

Josh Raulerson (08:47):

And in the meantime, meeting the, the volunteers and the communities where they’re at with the tools that PEC is able to, you know, kind of assemble and, and hand off the training the services that you guys are able to provide. Which sort of brings us to the report itself. Maybe report is not the right terminology, but z can you talk a bit about, about this assessment tool and sort of who it’s for, who’s going to find it useful, how they should use it?

Zhenya Nalywayko (09:13):

Yeah, so the Trail Maintenance Assessment Guide, as we called it, is a guide. It’s just that it’s very specifically not a manual, it’s not a list of activities or tasks that every trail manager or anyone who maintains a trail should be following, but rather it’s a sort of compilation of our understanding of trails and how we got to where we are going all the way back to the National Trail System Act in 1968, how that leads into today with the, you know, many, many new miles of trail coming on board each year. But as Brett said a minute ago, oftentimes without a, you know, strict plan or idea for how those new trail miles are going be maintained in the long run. So this report is a compilation of really best practices for maintaining those trails, looking at the key infrastructural elements not just the, the mowing or the cutting back of, of invasive species, the things that are really going to make your, your trail last for years and years to come and not deteriorate prematurely.

In addition, it overlaps with some of the other work we’re doing which we might talk about in a, in a moment in terms of doing trail assessments. And it provides really a picture book guide for if you’re out in the field, whether it’s you, your trail maintenance crew, or a crew of volunteers. It gives pictures of common maintenance issues with various features of the trail, from the trail surface to signage to trail structures like bridges and boardwalks. And really narrows in on, okay, if you’re seeing this on your trail bridge or on your crushed gravel surface, it’s likely being caused by this issue. And here’s how you might go about addressing that from, you know, preventing it from happening in the first place or addressing it once it already has happened. It’s really intended to be far reaching you know, useful for everyone. And it’s, it’s really a continuum. You know, we understand that many trail groups and trail managers don’t have the funding or the capacity to take care of everything all at once, but it should provide an idea for prioritizing maintenance issues from most urgent to, okay. This can wait a little bit.

Josh Raulerson (11:31):

What are kind of some of the most common issues that, you know, the trails are dealing with and that are addressed in in here?

Zhenya Nalywayko (11:37):

It’s a good question, and I think we do actually point that out in the guide. The three most common issues facing basically any trail, and I should back up and say that the examples that are included in this manual are mostly pulled from roughly 20 trail assessments that PEC and our partners did of over 250 miles of trail across the state of Pennsylvania. But despite the, the examples coming mostly from Pennsylvania, these issues really will apply to trails across the nation. And those, you know, three biggest issues are water. So as Brett mentioned before, you know, drainage infrastructure, a lot of our trails in Pennsylvania are rail trails that were built on former rail lines and are still using that drainage infrastructure from, you know, a hundred, you know, 150 years ago in some cases. But even on new trails that are built, it’s still important to maintain that drainage infrastructure so that you don’t cause subsurface issues to the trail tread, which might cause it to buckle or things like that. Another of the, the three main issues are the lifecycle of materials. So understanding if you lay down and asphalt trail surface, how long it’s going to last before you start needing to do some ongoing maintenance to keep it in, in good and safe condition for users. And then the third one being increased user volumes, which we’ve seen, especially since the COVID-19 pandemic and you know, people getting out of their houses and getting back into outdoor recreation with multi-use trails, often being the gateway drug to getting people back outdoors.

Josh Raulerson (13:13):

And this, this is a good thing to be clear, right? We’re happy about this.

Zhenya Nalywayko (13:16):

Yes, this is 100% a good thing. However, with those increased user volumes comes more degradation on the trail surfaces and you know, the greater necessity of tracking the issues that are going on conducting regular assessments, having maintenance schedules in place, and addressing those issues as we lay out in the guide.

Josh Raulerson (13:37):

How much of this is like addressing emergent issues, decisions made years ago, maybe trail systems that are in place for a while and beginning to show their age versus frontloading the solutions and think, you know, prevention, anticipating issues down the road. How useful will this be for people that are, you know, developing trail segments to begin with, things to keep in mind as they move forward?

Brett Hollern (14:00):

That’s a key element, Josh, that you, that you nailed the idea that everybody’s the rallying cry I mentioned before, we need money for maintenance, right? Well, if I’m a funder, how, what are you doing to ensure that that money I’m providing you is going to be steward and used properly? Right? So part of the goal of our work is to provide that assurance by providing these, the training tools and resources for these groups to be able to say to a funder, we’re using PEC’s Trail Maintenance Assessment Guide or some other resource to ensure that this trail that we’re starting to build now is going to be maintained over the long haul. And part of our larger effort and a on a pilot program that we’re getting underway is to almost provide a stamp of approval that a trail group has done this, taken some kind of training and proactive approach to maintenance.

Because in, in many cases, and particularly with you know, grant applications for, for public funding there’ll be a question on there that says what are you going to do to ensure this investment we’re making is going to be maintained? And you know, trail groups will do a nice job of saying, we’ll add it to our existing maintenance program. We’re currently maintaining 40 miles of trail, so this will just be added on to that existing thing, but what does that really mean? So what we’re hoping to do is professionalize an approach to maintenance. You know, just anecdotally, a lot of what’s happening in our trails is being stored in somebody’s memory, right? They know where the drain is with the problem. It’s not identified on a GIS software. It’s not being tracked for how many times the pipe, the 12 inch pipe is not handling water and they’re replacing washouts. So we’re trying to bring a level of professionalism to trail maintenance while also keeping it as simple and cost effective as possible, because we know if we make it too complicated or too expensive, trail groups are going to cry, we’re broke, and we don’t have capacity to do this.

Josh Raulerson (16:09):

Well, this kind of gets to some of the other resources maybe that PEC has to offer for, for trail managers. And I’m thinking of the app. Is that something that you want to talk about?

Zhenya Nalywayko (16:16):

Sure, yeah. The trail maintenance toolkit, which is referenced in the report, is something that PEC has been developing for several years now. And as I mentioned before, it’s what we use to do the assessments. That led to the key insights that we pulled from to create this guide. And the, the trail maintenance toolkit is a combination phone based app and web map that once available trail organizations will be able to set up both on their phone for their maintenance crews or volunteers to go out and perform assessments in the field, and then also have a web map back at the office that they can go to track different issues that they notate in the field, filter them by year or by status of, of urgency to replace or fix and even print out different reports and, and things of that nature.

(17:12):

So it kind of provides the full capabilities of, of both like an online mapping platform and spreadsheets, which is great. But the phone app itself is structured along the same categories that are used in the guide. So everything from trail surfaces to trail structures like the bridges and boardwalks that I mentioned before, to signage to vegetation management et cetera. And within each of those categories also provides levels of urgency that are explained a little bit further in the guide. Now, when you’re out in the field with this tool and take a, take a photo of an issue and code it, it also geolocates it to that location on the trail so that maintenance crews or volunteers can go back later on to exactly that location where, where the issue was found and address that issue later on. And we also want people to look at this when they’re going out and doing these assessments, not as just focusing on issues along your trail, but rather using this to catalog the full list of amenities and infrastructure that your trail contains.

 (18:18):

And just keeping a running tab on it. So let’s say you put a new sign up, you mark, you geolocate it using the app, mark it as like new, maybe a year or so later, you come back, it’s a little bit weathered due to rain where there’s some graffiti on it, then you can drop it down and the rankings to, you know, maybe a three is acceptable or even a four is poor. But then you fix it back up and you put it back up to like new, and you can do that same process for all of the infrastructure and amenities across your trail. So it’s really keeping, it’s really helping trail managers have a better idea, like Brett was mentioning before, of where everything exists on their trail and what status it’s in, instead of it all just being locked inside one or a few people’s heads.

Brett Hollern (19:01):

And I just, just to add to that is, is once you have all this data and start to track it, you can actually call some of that data and say like we know, you know, drainage pipes, you pull that up, you look at it and you know, you see that 50% of your drainage pipes have a rating of poor that helps with budget planning. That helps with making your case to funders. So as much as we’re providing this assessment guide as a, as a visual tool to be able to how to rate these, this is a part of a practical suite of tools that will really help trail organizations take their maintenance to that next level and get it out of people’s heads and onto GIS systems with trackable, quantifiable data.

Josh Raulerson (19:49):

So as, as this podcast is being released, we’re sort of mid rollout and I, we’re anticipating probably a growing interest I think in this work. I know that maybe some of our colleagues in the, the national Trails community got a little bit of a sneak preview of this recently, but I’m curious about the reception has been so far both among trail organizations and, you know, again, going to funders, the fact that this project was funded in the first place suggests that, that this is something that funders are thinking about as well. But what do you anticipate the response is going to be? What have you seen already?

Zhenya Nalywayko (20:21):

I can take the first part of that question. You know, I’ve personally presented on this so far at the collaboration of regional trail initiatives, which PEC is a founding member of, and also has been an attending app for since the beginning. CRTI is really the only convening of its kind in the country that brings together regional trail initiatives, so long distance trails or trail networks in, you know, urban areas that span out from the downtown core to the suburbs and rural areas. So it differs in that way from something like the International Trail Summit or the Pennsylvania Greenways and, and Trail Summit. But on my presentation on the guide there, people were very interested in it, people across the country, and it really speaks to the fact that this is something that is on people’s minds no matter where you are. You know, people are really excited to build new miles of trail, but it’s becoming more and more evident that building those new miles of trails is in some cases coming into jeopardy because funders and people doing maintenance work are saying we have our hands full with what we already have.

What we already have is not being maintained to a high enough level. So how can we continue to build new miles of trail without any plan for what’s going to happen in the future? And I also presented on it last week at the NEPA Trails Forum, the Northeast Pennsylvania Trails Forum, which is another PEC initiative up in the northeast part of the state. And it had a, a similar reception there. You know, many people came up to me afterwards asking how they could get their hands on their report, which we’ll be able to tell you more about in a moment. And yeah, just very excited to see where things are going.

Brett Hollern (22:00):

From the side of the funding. The philanthropic community in Pennsylvania, particularly tied to the western and eastern corner of the state, have long supported trail development, and I think there’s a sense that they want to see those investments stewarded and cared for. So I think there’s a real interest on the side of philanthropy to ensure that the continued investments they make will in fact have the best chance at a, at long-term sustainability. We have funding in place from the Richard King Mellon Foundation and the McCune Foundation that we’re generous to support this effort. Both key Western Pennsylvania foundations who have supported trail development in the region pretty much since the trail started to get built.

And, you know, and the other major partner to all this is Pennsylvania, DCNR, through their C2P2 grant program, have provided hundreds of millions of dollars to build trail infrastructure in Pennsylvania. And while they have not ignored the maintenance issue, it’s a bit more challenging to dole out dollars for maintenance without a clear idea of what that means. The soon to be release State Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan will again highlight the need for better and more proactive approaches to maintenance. And also the State Strategic Land and Water Trails Plan will highlight the same, and we’ll call out the need for training and tools and resources for trail organizations. So as often PEC is right there at the front of the pack trying to take these challenges head on.

Josh Raulerson (23:37):

It also probably helps to build the case for state funding as we’re looking at budget season coming up in Pennsylvania.

Brett Hollern (23:42):

Certainly, you know, once these things are built, there needs to be another step in the process of public funding to ensure their long-term sustainability. So, you know, all this work is feeding into the idea that we’ll create a platform to talk about this from a legislative perspective.

Josh Raulerson (24:01):

People are, are figuring it out, like there is a growing awareness that this is something that has to be dealt with. How much of that is being driven by climate impacts or anticipation of what climate change is going to bring, and how does the assessment tool address those kind of projections? How do you build resilient sort of climate resilient trail systems

Brett Hollern (24:20):

Oversize your pipes tenfold? But seriously, that is a great question. You know, we talk hundred-year storms. I mean that’s a, it’s a misnomer now, the severe weather events that we have in Western Pennsylvania, we’re blessed with this wonderful to topography that makes our trails special, but it also makes our trails that much harder to maintain steep slopes, soils, vegetation on those slopes coming down onto the trail. The amounts of water draining from our hillsides through drainage pipes that are probably undersized into the rivers is going to be a continuing challenge. The best thing I think we can do in the trail community is just to continue to plan that things aren’t going to change. We’re going to continue to deal with increased water volumes, more trees down more slides, and that we need to budget for it in response to it. But take as many proactive measures as we can.

Brett Hollern (25:19):

Some background, I, I helped with the Great Allegheny Passage and been involved with that project for 20 years, developing and maintaining it. And I always joke that, like I said, if it’s flowing or growing, it’s going to cause you an issue. So the better you can do to mitigate those things by ensuring your drainage culverts are clean and free flowing, when it comes time to replace a pipe, if, you know, replace it with something that’s going to handle increased flows, cut trees down that look like they’re going to be problems. But really the, the whole idea is that if we, if you don’t, if it seriously now, it’s going to lead to major problems later.

Josh Raulerson (25:56):

And sort of going back to those volunteers and sort of grassroots advocates that are the, the lifeblood of so many trail systems and you know, we obviously, we’ve been talking a lot about physical infrastructure, but there’s a social infrastructure in play here too. How should this work and, you know, interest in this topic generally inform the way trail organizations are engaging with their users, with their, their local supporters. Is there an aspect of sustainability that pertains to the relationships between trail groups and, and people in communities?

Zhenya Nalywayko (26:25):

Yeah, I think, you know, people should feel and often do feel proud of and ownership over the trails in their community or in their neighborhood or even trails they like to visit, even if they might be across the state or across the country. You can take part in being part of the solution for those trails by volunteering with a local trail group by donating money to organizations like PEC or others who do actual trail maintenance work on the ground, contacting your, your local elected officials about conservation funding and funding for trails in particular. There’s many things that people can do to be part of the solution here, but from a practical perspective on the trail itself, just treat the trail the way that you would want your, you know, the sidewalk in front of your house to be treated or, or your property to be treated.

You know, don’t litter. If you do see litter, you can be a good Samaritan, pick it up, throw it in the nearest trash can, you know, if you see debris down along a trail, you can contact the trail group to get that situation remedied. And if you don’t know who the trail group is, you can contact your local elected officials. There are many things like that. And of course, always being courteous on the trail as well. You want to create a welcoming environment for everyone. So, you know, while you might enjoy going 30 miles an hour on your, your road bike, a family with young kids in a stroller might not enjoy that quite as much. So just being courteous to those around you and not degrading the environment, but rather contributing to it in ways that you can.

Brett Hollern (27:59):

And I would add to that in relationship to health control organizations and their volunteers sort of start to switch gears, pun intended, that we have a culture of volunteer maintenance that is very much takes pride in fixing things as cheaply and quickly as possible, right? We’re, and, and many times we’re putting a Band-Aid on a knife wound and it’s not going to be effective in, in stopping the problem. So trail organizations need to start to change the culture around the approach to maintenance, how and how volunteers are utilized. There needs to be a greater commitment from, for municipal partnerships, right? If a municipality has equipment that they’re willing to provide or donate their services for things volunteers can’t handle that then deploys volunteers to take on tasks that are much more appropriate for their skillset and capacity. So I think it’s important that we think about ways to utilize volunteers effectively and every trail group’s different.

There are some trail groups out there that have retired equipment operators and they have a backhoe and they’re out there doing the good work, but not every trail group has that, right? And it’s probably more so that the trail groups don’t give a retired accountant nothing against accountants that loves the trail and said, how can I get involved and want to help? That probably has no background in heavy equipment mechanics that can fix that tractor once it breaks down. So, you know, it’s, it’s really I think finding the right mix of volunteers, contractual labor when it’s needed to address things, getting professional guidance to help them, whether it be to strengthen the organization itself to provide better volunteer recruitment management training, all those types of things. Really it has to be sort of comprehensive approach to it because it’s not one, one thing that’s going to stem the tide of the upcoming and ongoing challenges of maintenance.

Josh Raulerson (30:01):

The assessment guide itself — like this is normally the point where I’d say we’ll link to these materials on the show notes on the website — like, if it wasn’t clear, this is a pretty substantial piece of work that you all have put together here. How available is it and how do people get a hold of it and in what form?

Zhenya Nalywayko (30:18):

Sure. Yeah. And we should really give a shout out to our consultants and really friends of PEC environmental Planning and Design, which is a planning and landscape architecture firm here in Pittsburgh. They actually compiled the report and it looks great with insight and, and many rounds of feedback and discussion with Brett and myself. But yes, so to your point Josh, this report is going to be available likely in early June online for viewing only, which we will be able to link to from the PEC website. There will not be a PDF available for download, but you will be able to view it online. And if you’re interested in receiving a copy, you can reach out to PEC directly to get on a wait list for a copy of the report, which will likely be available for sale for a reasonable fee for the quality and, and amount of information that’s being provided.

Josh Raulerson (31:12):

Yeah, is not just a pamphlet.

Zhenya Nalywayko (31:13):

Yeah, I think we’re up to 210 pages or something like that. So, but it doesn’t read like that and many portions of it while I, while I would recommend reading it cover to cover many portions of it could be used as a guidebook or, or field guide in the, in the field to take out with you and diagnose issues as you go.

Josh Raulerson (31:31):

Alright, well congratulations on completing this. It’s very exciting. I think people are going to be excited to see it. Z, Brett, thank you for being here.

Brett Hollern (31:38):

Thank you, Josh.

Zhenya Nalywayko (31:39):

Thanks. See you on the trails.

Josh Raulerson (31:47):

Zhenya Nalywayko, Z, is a manager with PEC’s Trails Program, and Brett Hollern is our regional vice president for western PA. Keep an eye on the PEC website and our social media for updates on how to access the Trail Maintenance Assessment Guide we’ve been talking about. It’ll be made available in various forms over the course of this summer. So stay tuned. Our website, of course, is at pecpa.org and we’re on all the social media platforms that are worth your time and at least one that possibly isn’t. Up to you. Pennsylvania Legacies is released monthly as a podcast on your preferred mobile app and available to stream on the PEC website at pecpa.org. While you’re there, check out our hundreds of past episodes and if you like anything you hear, please consider supporting the Pennsylvania Environmental Council with a financial gift to find out how. Look for the donate button at the top of the page on the PEC website, pecpa.org. Until next month, I’m Josh Raulerson and thanks for listening.